This post is really a continuation of the one I published yesterday. Before I started writing about attitudes towards D/s dynamics, power exchange and pro-dommes I went off to hunt for a blog post illustrating what I felt was the opposing point of view. Luckily, I didn’t have to go too far on my blogroll to find this one by the Dishevelled Domina. It’s not exactly recent (May 2011) but I think it captures a fairly common viewpoint (both Dev and Stabbity commented on it favorably). As yesterday’s post was getting a bit long and unwieldy, I decided to create a new one just to tackle DD’s original post in more depth. I’d suggest reading her thoughts before proceeding, as everything will make a lot more sense that way.
Let me start off with where we agree, as it’s always good to start on a positive note.
It has been suggested to me, more than once, that since I like dominating men I should do it professionally. I am almost invariably annoyed by the suggestion
Dishevelled Domina
No arguments here. I can see why that would be annoying. It’s a very presumptuous statement. Now setting that justifiable response aside, let’s move onto the stuff I don’t agree with….
The librarian analogy the post opens with seems very tortured, but not in the fun way. I’m not the President of the United States (with all the baggage that come with that). I don’t session in a space honoring me. I’m not putting together my memorial for the future. A domme isn’t my indirect employee. It’s very clear in that example the man has all the power. It’s not at all clear to me why anyone would think that analogy maps closely to a pro-domme dynamic.
A better analogy, if we want to try and stick to the library idea, would be something like: An expert and highly regarded librarian has assembled her private library over several years. If she likes you (based on manners, attitude, past behavior, etc.), and your interests overlap and you make a sizable donation, she’ll give you access to the library and her expertise for a limited time. She’ll also take into consideration your ideas about new books to get or particular genres the library is lacking. Now who has the power in that situation? Sure as hell doesn’t seem like it’s the guy browsing the shelves occasionally.
When I play, I do something TO my eager fucktoy. If I am being paid to perform that act though, I am now doing it FOR him.
Dishevelled Domina
Actually I’d suggest you’re doing it WITH him. No matter how great a dominant you may be, at the end of the day if the submissive doesn’t get something out of the play at some level, it’s not going to work. Whatever the circumstances, all parties are trying to fulfill mutual needs, with varying degrees alignment between them. In a consensual dynamic, no domme gets to do whatever she wants to do irrespective of any other opinion.
I’ll skip over the inflammatory Taco Bell comment (cheap, nasty, fast food is the culinary equivalent of pro-dommes apparently), and get to what I think is the crux of the matter.
…one glorious day, you manage to talk her into dousing herself in baby powder and fighting her way into a tube of latex, or some other equally hideous getup that you’ve been fantasizing about, and then you have her spank you, assfuck you, and generally get you off exactly the way you pictured it, well, ya know what?
You have all the power, and you are running the fuck. She is not dominating you.
……
What are you doing there is called role playing, and it can be awesome, but it is not femdom.
Dishevelled Domina
Absolutely agree. Sounds like fun, but doesn’t sound like femdom. It also doesn’t sound anything like the way I play. I strongly suspect I’m not unique in that.
My pre-scene negotiation normally consists of one sentence, where I suggest a general theme or direction. It might say “Let’s try piercing”, or “Maybe some rope bondage”, or “How about breathplay?” From that I leave it to the domme (Lady Lydia) to riff on that theme anyway she likes. We’ve played enough together that she knows that I’m very much the kinky omnivore, and where my hard limits lie (no scat, no drowning, no spiders). She can spin things however she wants over the 2 to 3 hours of the session. I never make clothing suggestions, I don’t have options once we start playing and I never know what she’s decided. Sometimes the theme becomes the major part of our play. Sometimes it goes in a different direction, we end up doing entirely different activities, and the suggested theme ends up as a very minor part. Sometimes she ignores it all-together. For example, the scrotal inflation scene we did was a completely out of the blue suggestion. I’ve no idea what I’d originally suggested for that session, but it certainly wasn’t that. However, Lydia had just purchased some sterile saline and was keen to inflate something with it. I was happy to oblige and a few hours later I had a sack the size of a cantaloupe.
I’ve never made suggestions during a session about what to do next or how to change an activity. It’d seem very weird to do so. The only time I’ve stepped back out of it is when I’ve had physical issues like cramps or numbness. I’d actually be happy dropping even my single sentence theme suggestion, but Lydia likes it as a jumping off point for her ideas. And who am I to tell the domme how to run her sessions?
It’s clearly true that some pro-domme sessions involve choreographed activities directed by the bottom. But exactly the same could be said for lifestyle play. After all, people want to be seen as GGG. So to try and define ‘true’ power exchange based on a pro/lifestyle divide is false dichotomy. It can work or not work in both situations. And I get a little fed up of people telling me ‘I am not trying to say that unless you do femdom the way I do femdom yer doin’ it wrong…..[but you are]‘
I wasn’t really sure what image would be suitable to highlight this post. So I thought I’d simply go with one of my favorites from the Dishevelled Domina’s tumblr site.
Very good post.
I can’t bear it when these lifestyle dominants try to belittle what we do as false or not-domination. It doesn’t occur to them that we are lifestyle too. It doesn’t occur to them that you can’t do this job if you don’t get hell of a lot out of it yourself. They take the worst examples of professional dominants that are out there and apply their pleaser/fly-by-night approach to the rest of us.
Yes, we want/need to make the client happy. Yes, we only do what they like (well, doh!). Yes, we negotiate. But how is any of this not unlike lifestyle domination?
Do you have to selfishly make the sub’s life a misery before you are considered ‘true’?
Thanks Anna. Glad you could drop by and comment.
Having interacted with pro-dommes like yourself who clearly put a huge amount of effort into their sessions, but also get a huge amount back in return, I can understand how annoying the “it’s fake-domination” attitude must be. Having had some amazing experiences with me and the domme really getting deep into our respective headspaces, it bugs me to hear that described as somehow invalid or bogus.
I think it’s often based on a misapprehension of how a session can unfold. Hopefully this post can at least help clarify that a bit.
I should add that in general I like the Dishevelled Domina’s blog/tumblr. I think she has a lot of interesting posts and good ideas to share. I could have picked over similar ideas from many other places, but this seemed a particularly good representative post to tease apart.
-paltego
Hi Paltego:
I searched your post in vain for a point I disagree with. I have to say you hit the nail on the head consistently throughout. While I don’t think pro domination is a perfect panacea I think the view many “lifestyle” folk take of it is highly prejudicial and ill informed.
As I tried to say in my series of posts on this subject a great deal depends on which prodomme you decide to visit. You can find pretty much anything you want if look hard enough including ladies who will do anything you want (provided you have the $) and I agree that is not femdom. While there are plenty of strippers with whips out there they are not what I would seek in a pro and I do not believe they represent the industry as a whole. There are also ladies out there with a great deal of experience who are genuinely dominant. If I were ever to find myself a client again that would be the type of pro I would seek.
My approach would be to politely list my experiences, desires and limitations then toss her the keys and let her drive. As you said, a simple one sentence suggestion (“can we try xxxx today please Ma’am?) should be sufficient pre-session negotiation. After that a domme should be free to express herself creatively.
One of the wonderful things about seeing a pro is that you DON’T have to micro manage the scene. You would never tell Coltrane which notes to play in “My Favorite Things” for example. He knows the melody of the original song but the beauty is what he does with it. While I know there are some clients who write scripts I think they are in the minority and most (good) pros don’t want to be bothered with them.
I also agree that if a lifestyle Mistress makes no attempt whatsoever to meet the needs of her submissive the relationship is probably doomed to failure. I agree with your distinction that we play “with” our partners not “to” “from” or “at” them.
I also agree about the spiders. Positively no spiders please!
Great post. I couldn’t agree more.
Hey hmp,
Thanks for your thoughts. I think you could be making a bid for the record for my longest comment 🙂
Pro-domination certainly isn’t a perfect panacea. But I don’t think anything is really. There’s always trade-offs. I guess my perfect option would be a close lifestyle relationship with the option to periodically involve a pro-domme for her expertise/equipment/ideas. But I’m not going to hold my breath for that!
I’ve certainly been lucky with who I’ve seen. I have seen a couple of dommes where it hasn’t clicked and who I’ve never blogged about. But it’s much easier to put those poor experiences in context when you’ve got had some amazing sessions with a genuine D/s dynamic.
I think the idea that most pro-domme sessions are about role-playing is a common misconception. My impression is that only a relatively small fraction of sessions involve it. And as you say, almost no pros like to be given a script. Almost universally the ask is for a rough outline to allow them to improvise and adjust it to their particular preferences.
Glad we’re aligned on the importance of keeping spiders far away 🙂
-paltego
I’m certainly not going to dig as deep as this discussion finds itself (primarily because I have a small shovel) but I think sometimes the very term “ProDomme” comes with some presumption that any woman who accepts money (or tributes… love that word) for domination services has somehow become a member of an Olympic team because their skill has superseded that of most Dominant women involved in some aspect of D/s.
I think the term itself can cause some confusion.
Never really thought about the pro/amateur split suggesting expert/non-expert in this context. In some domains pro has a positive connotation (e.g. pro-golfer) but often in the sexual domain calling someone a ‘pro’ can have a much more mixed and often negative connotation.
These things can change over time of course. At one point, back when the Olympics really were about amateurs, being called a pro-athlete was negative thing. Now it’s seen as a compliment.
Right now I think if you were playing with a partner and said “wow, that whip work was great, thought you were almost a pro-domme for a while there” you’d probably not be very popular! Maybe that’ll change, but I doubt it somehow.
-paltego
paltego,
I would suggest that the same comment with the word amateur substitute would hardly seem complimentary either.
“…thought you were an amateur for a while there.”
Once again labels have failed us.
I have long been dissatisfied with the terminology in common use. As a dominant woman who doesn’t make money with a whip and who has been repeatedly advised to – and I quote – “go pro”
I am of the opinion that Strongnsubmissive has a very valid observation about how the current labels are often understood.
That is one of the reasons I avoid the term “prodom” for the most part. I also avoid the term “lifestyle dom.”
Being a dominant woman is not my lifestyle. I could be vanilla, submissive, or switch and the vast majority of my life would look pretty much the same.
I tend to use dom-for-hire because it completely side-steps the implication that when the rest of us dominant women get good enough maybe we can go pro too.
I haven’t really settled on a term for the rest of us, dom-solely-for-reasons-of-intrinsic-value
seems a bit unwieldy.
That’s true DD. Hadn’t thought about that variation. In the sexual domain both the pro and amateur labels are very charged.
In some ways the pro-domme label is appropriate. After all we typically use pro/amateur modifiers when we need to be explicit about an activity that people also do for pleasure/profit.
e.g. I’m a professional dancer, or I’m a pro-golfer, or I’m an amateur chef.
We don’t need them when we’re talking about something that’s manifestly not fun. Nobody needs to say that they’re a professional dentist. Yet if someone were to say they were an amateur domme I think the implication (in my head at least) would be that they were aiming to go pro. Adding the qualifier introduces the concept of it as a career choice rather than an intrinsic part of someone’s identity, where something like claiming to be an amateur cook doesn’t.
Tricky, with no good answers that I can see.
Strongnsubmissive, HMP, and especially you, Anna,
I wanted to let you know that paltego and I are discussing this post and mine with the goal of cross-publishing the finished conversation.
I do hope that until then you will withhold judgment as I think a clearer understanding is forthcoming.