Peroxide put up an interesting post recently about the desire for a man who is both a submissive and an alpha male.
I’ve been seeing a familiar refrain when dommes describe their male partners, usually along the lines of: “you would never know he’s submissive outside the bedroom” or “in his professional life he’s a real alpha male, but to me he’s submissive.”
Peroxide
He makes some interesting points and the post had a number of thoughtful and positive comments, so it’s worth reading the whole thing. It caught my attention because I’ve also noticed similar themes in blogs and forums, but I decode them slightly differently. Of course I’m not a dominant woman, and have no special insight into this particular desire. But I’ve never let a silly thing like an absence of facts or a lack of domain knowledge get in the way of my opinions before, and don’t see why I should start now.
I should begin by saying I really hate the alpha/beta terminology. It’s a reduction past the point of absurdity. No person is one thing in all situations at all times. I recently saw a comment about Ted Conferences, where someone claimed that they used to be all about the alpha males, the CEOs, but now it was full of the beta VPs. That’s perhaps an accurate description from a purely biological perspective, but it’s ludicrous given the common usage of the word. The alpha to omega classification might make sense when you’re a pride of lions, but doesn’t map at all to the kind of fluid dynamic social structures humans inhabit.
Peroxide attributes part of this common desire for an ‘alpha’ as a reaction to very non-alpha associated kinks.
Part of it I think is pushing back against the over-prevalent, sissy/forced-femme/cuckold submale fantasy that that is being pushed as the way that Femdom works.
Peroxide
I agree with the reaction part, but I’m not sure I would assign it narrowly to that specific stimulus. For one thing I don’t think that particular set of kinks are ‘being pushed’ as widely as sometimes gets attributed. They also sound like perfectly reasonable ways to play for couples that enjoy it. The use of ‘submale fantasy’ suggests those are purely male driven desires, when that’s clearly not exclusively the case.
What I’ve observed from these kind of discussions is that the desire isn’t typically for an extroverted, aggressive, alpha group leader (although it can be). It’s more to avoid a passive, unimaginative, needy wet blanket who needs to be micro-managed. I think some men interpret submissive as ‘You need to tell me what to do, I no longer should need to think.” That’s isn’t an attractive quality for most women, dominant or not.
I remember one female blogger (although I don’t remember exactly who) relating how she’d gone for dinner with a prospective submissive and he’d insisted on having her order for him, and then when that didn’t go down well, ordering exactly what she’d ordered. That was his idea of being a submissive. In many ways that kind of behavior reminds me of guys who think emailing penis shots is an appropriate introduction on a dating site. It’s a way of treating the other person as simply a delivery mechanism for their personal sexual fantasy.
I’d suggest that confidence, competence and empathy are three of the most desired characteristics. That’s the ability to understand what the other person wants, and the ability to provide it in a drama free fashion, no alpha chest beating required. Of course, I haven’t exactly been tearing up the kinky dating scene recently (or ever), so caveat emptor.
For images I’ve gone with some shots of men making themselves useful. The first came via the GeekDomme tumblr. The second is another image from Domina M.
Greetings,
IMHO, there is a difference between the Master/slave dynamic and D/s power exchange. Orlando Peterson (sp?L describes the slave as a person without identity and with no status. Such a person’s entire identity is caught up in their Master. A power exchange might be a different dynamic in which the subservient person has something to give over (exchange) in their relationship with the dominant one. The slave has only their body to be beaten. In a power exchange, the sub willfully gives thenselves and so domination is in the mind or spirit. In practice, however, from outside the relationship it may be difficult to tell the difference.
Peace,
Pat
Paltego, We meet again.
Thanks for the bump, of course. We’ve tangled on this issue, of whether/or how much certain fantasies are being pushed (and by whom) before, I won’t go on at length.
I just want to reiterate, that when I look for erotica, or porn, I find these themes more often than I’d like, they crop up it seems, everywhere I look.
When I look for community, or discussion, I see it there as well.
I’m looking for what I consider to be a fairly simple and realistic dynamic, and I am not seeing it discussed many places, and I find it in fiction in even fewer.
That is what I mean by being pushed, because if I told someone who had no prior concept of Femdom, that I was interested in it, and let them do the research on their own, they would very likely come away with warped perception of what it is that drives me.
I think it has some relevance to point out that I had this link, attached to the words “being pushed,” to a post from a dominant woman who feels similarly.
Perhaps, I have assigned the reaction to too narrow a stimulus, as you say, but I’m reasonably certain that the reaction plays out as I described often enough to warrant consideration.
Stimulating as always,
– Peroxide
p.s. So much for not going on at length.
I’m also tempted to keep this short, as my comment about the fantasys being pushed was kind of a side point. I actually agree with you about the reaction part, and wanted to concentrate more on what I personally thought was the trigger for the reaction. I see it more of a reaction to particular ‘submissive behaviour’ (and the perception of submissives), rather than the specific media issues you sited. But I can never resist an argument…..
When it comes to finding the themes more often than you’d like, that hardly seems surprising, as you don’t want to see them at all. Anything greater than zero would seem to be a problem. But that’s hardly reasonable for the people who do enjoy that type of play.
As for a ‘realistic’ dynamic, who is it supposed to be realistic for? For Suzanne or for MissH where sissy and chastity play are a daily part of life? For Vanessa who enjoys cuckolding?
I think the key question is “Does that type of material occur way more frequently than it should given the interests of the broad community?” That’s tough to answer, given how undefinable both parts of that equation are. But I would love to know where you’re looking that makes those themes crop up everywhere you look. I just did a very quick survey of the first page (typically around 10 images) of the first 13 tumblrs on my images page (I got bored after that). I found exactly 1 image that would fall into the sissy/cuckold/forced-femme categories. So that’s less than 1% of the material. Not exactly scientific, but at least a datapoint with some real data behind it.
I certainly wouldn’t disagree that someone doing research on femdom would come away with some warped ideas of what drives you. Fetishistic clothing is certainly over-represented. As is expensive BDSM equipment, dungeons, fancy rope work, etc. etc. Although of course for some people even this is a part of their reality. Me for one.
I also agree that a lot of themes are under-represented. But one could make that argument about almost any medium. Happy marriages are under-represented on TV, because conflict and drama is entertaining. Boring jobs are under-represented in books because they’re not interesting to write about. And normal sex between average looking people is under-represented in porn, because fantasies tend to the extremes. That’s human nature.
I’m not sure I see the connection to the link you gave. I certainly agree that telling people how do be dominant or submissive is wrong. Although that said, I did get into an argument with DD around this very topic a few weeks ago. I do differentiate between a specific instruction to someone (wrong) and a generally expressed desire to the world (OK in my book).
Anyway, clearly neither of us are going to score high marks for our brevity, so I’ll stop here before I write a comment longer than the post itself.
-paltego
There are too many topics we’re touching on here to even approach brevity, and I’m sure we”ll most likely reach an impasse again.
I want everyone to have the freedom too express themselves as they see fit, However, regardless of whether or not the message is intended as being essentialist, there are people who are reading it as such.
Dominant women and Submissive men who are are being scared away from their own sexuality, because the message they are getting is that it must include x,y and z.
I’ll eschew the rest of what I have to say for now, but I’ll most likely get a post or two out of what you’ve given me to think about. But, I’ll avoid continuing on at length here.
– Peroxide
I’ll look forward to seeing what you come up with in future posts. I’m sure it’ll provoke discussion!
Personally I think there’s an interesting conundrum for you to solve…
1/
If this message of femdom always including sissy/cuckolding/forced-femme/etc. is everywhere, or at least in a majority of material, then I think it’s necessary to show that rather than simply assert it. That’s a strong statement to make, and when I look at my image lists or my fiction lists or general porn sites I don’t see it ‘everywhere’. I might be wrong, but such a strong statement needs evidence.
2/
Alternative if that message is present, but not everywhere, what exactly is the problem? There are clearly both men and women who like it, they obviously shouldn’t be denied the right to express that. From a personal perspective, I wouldn’t want to feel I should avoid posting pictures of the heavy S&M I like, just because some dominant women or submissive men might see them and be scared away from their own sexuality. It seems that the same argument could be made there. Pleasing everyone means pleasing no one.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m certainly not going to argue that the representation of femdom in porn is a realistic one for a lot of people. But the same could be said of all porn. And I get very twitchy when I see comments that have a touch of the “I don’t like that so you should stop it” about them.
-paltego
One more reply, because the two quite interesting points you bring up, aren’t what I was intending to write about, but I feel like I can’t reference this conversation elsewhere, without at least addressing your statement.
1/ The primary reason I don’t give solid data, on how often (and where) I’m seeing these messages, is because I don’t exactly feel comfortable sharing my pornography viewing habits. Furthermore, while cuckolding squicks me, sissy/forced-femme very occasionally (and when done just right) works for me, but I as (as we’ve discussed) feel like it often comes attached to negative messages about femininity and submission.
2/ The message that femdom looks a certain way, while present, but clearly not everywhere is a problem because there are real people being scared away from their own sexuality, or being disgusted by how they understand their partner’s sexuality.
It’s great that it works for a lot of people, or at least a lot of consumers, but I’ll maintain that that something about how femdom is perceived is hurting a lot of other people, and something needs to be said about it.
– Peroxide
1/ I can understand not wanting to share your porn viewing habits. This site is a large subset of mine, but certainly not all of them! However, the contention isn’t that these messages are somewhere (i.e. where you’re looking) it’s that they are everywhere (in your words). Or at least very widespread. So you don’t have to share. I’ve got a large number of free image sites listed, a lengthy list of fiction list and I’m sure we all know the major BDSM producers (kink.com, English Mansion, Club Dom, Sado Ladies, etc.) I wouldn’t claim that represents the universe of femdom porn, but it’s a decent subset. It should be enough to prove the case one way or another. I’m not going to deny you’ll find some material scattered in there, but I just don’t see it dominating the way you and others seem to. Quite honestly, I see more of that material on the personal blogs of real people than I do in porn. And if it is dominant where you’re looking, but not more widely, then it kind of suggests you’re looking in the wrong places.
2/ You seem to miss my point here. Lets say there are people being scared away from their sexuality because of the heavy S&M images I sometimes post (for example the one I just put up tonight). It’s conceivable after all. It’s the kind of thing that might pop up on a search page and make people go “Wow, this stuff is freaky! I’m not into pain like that!” What am I supposed to do about that? Not post what I want? I am supposed to guess what might scare people away?
Or to take another example, what if someone has a fantasy about a world dominated by women? The fantasy involves all men being dominanted and sissified, and all women being cruel and humiliating to all men. Not my thing, but I’ve encountered guys who do like that. Is that person not allowed to create a tumblr to express that fantasy? Should they be penalized in someway because their fantasy might put some theoretical unknown person off femdom? Or piss off some dominant women who don’t want to be cruel and humiliating to all men?
Who gets to say what hurts people and what doesn’t? What happens when somebody tells you that your version of femdom is putting other people off? Do you stop having those fantasies?
At the end of the day I think the only sensible course is to promote what you like, create a positive experience for people who interact with you, and ignore what doesn’t appeal. Telling others that “they’re doing it wrong” is destined to failure.
-paltego