I stumbled across this post over at the Masculine Submission blog recently. It’s on the ever thorny topic of the perception of male submission in society. This is a reoccurring theme on many D/s blogs, and I’ve written about it in the past (which resulted in my most heavily commented post ever). I’ve played devils advocate before, and I’m about to do so again, although puzzlement would be a better way to summarize my attitude. I don’t want to be critical or diminish someone’s views, I just have difficulty relating.
Tomio’s whole post is worth reading, but the thrust of it is about the difficulty of being an openly submissive man in common environments that are hostile to that characteristic.
Why don’t submissive men hang out in the gym? That’s like asking why fish don’t hang out in the middle of the Sahara. It isn’t a friendly place for submissive men (let me be clear – I’m talking about guys who are openly submisisve…there are TONS of guys who pass as macho but are submissive when no one is watching)
…
If a man feels insecure about expressing who he is (security is the second level of needs); then he is incapable of achieving higher levels of existence.
Tomio Black
The part that puzzles me here is the idea of being ‘openly submissive’ in this kind of context? What does that really mean?
I don’t go to the gym regularly, a fact that’ll surprise no one who has seen any of my session shots. But the reason isn’t because of hostility, but because I find working out to be incredibly, brain numbingly, shoot-me now, tedious. I’m not really sure how open submission would manifest itself in a gym scenario. Actually, that’s not true, thanks to these kind of posts from Olivia Fitzgerald I do have some pretty good fantasies. But in reality, the daily interactions I have with people and places don’t normally touch on my innate submissive nature.
I find submission, like masochism, is entirely contextual. At work I tend to the forceful and aggressive. That’s not something forced on me by society, but just a natural function of working in a very competitive intellectually demanding area. In social groups I’m normally easy going and a facilitator of conversation, but not at all submissive. Only with the right person to accept my submission does that side of me come out.
I totally understand the potential difficulties in being a D/s couple in society, but that doesn’t seem to be what Tomio is talking about here. So am I just missing something here? Do other male submissives feel the need to openly express their submission in daily life, outside the specific context of a D/s relationship? Is the pressure to act like a ‘real man’ in conflict with how they intrinsically feel?
A black and white version of this image has been floating around a lot of tumblrs (I found it on Red Snapper). I believe it is by the artist Benegesseritt from deviantART, and entitled leave me the way i was before.
Hi Paltego:
Interesting and insightful post! Her Majesty and I flirt with being open about our D/s relationship sometimes but mostly we are under the radar. Anyone observing us in public could probably figure out that she calls most of the shots but that is true of many “vanilla” relationships. She would never display overt signs of sexual dominance in public. Well there was that time in the shoe store when I got to play shoe salesman but for the most part we keep to ourselves. She is a private person. I am something of an exhibitionist.
I go to the gym regularly but there are times I feel obliged to turn my back to the lockers!
Hey hmp,
I think the situation when a couple is involved is definitely different and trickier. There’s a natural assumption about either a male lead (in old fashioned social circles) or equality (in more modern ones). So anyone subverting that is risking questions, as well as bringing elements of their relationship to light that they’d rather remain private.
From a purely selfish perspective, it’d be nice if more couple were prepared to take that chance and be open. It might help shift the dynamic overall. But from a personal perspective I can completely understand not wanting to do that. I can’t say it’s a conversation I’d particularly enjoy having with my social circle or family.
So far I’ve not had any question odd bruises in the locker room (I do play squash occasionally), but it’s probably only a matter of time!
-paltego
Real interesting post paltego. Unfortunately, I’m not equipped to comment from the male perspective but do find the issue a bit confusing. Is there that pressing a need for a submissive to be “openly submissive” in public? Or for a Dom/me to be the same? Why in the world would that prevent you from going to the gym? staying in shape? taking care of your body?
Lifestyle couples need to be far more careful about expressing themselves than unattached submissives or Dom/mes of either gender.
Suzanne
Hey Suzanne,
I share the confusion. That was kind of what triggered the post. I was trying to understand Tomio’s perspective.
As I said in my reply to hmp, I think the story for couples and being public about that dynamic is a different one, and definitely trickier.
-paltego
Thanks for the link. I’ll try and make the answer somewhat pithy.
First, to explain what I mean by “open.” It does not mean “open to the entire world.” It simply means that they openly acknowledge their submissiveness and seek to live authentically as a submissive man. As you point out, you can do this easily without the people at work, or at the gym, knowing that you are submissive.
The question I was aiming at, basically, was: Why can’t a Dominant Woman spot a submissive man? The answer is: Because our culture, at best, ignores submissiveness in men. When it isn’t ignored, submission in men is generally seen as being unmanly.
So why don’t submissive men display their submissiveness more openly? Well, one reason – as you point out – is that it is contextual, and there is no need to display it openly. But there is also a good deal of hostility towards male submission, just as there is a good deal of hostility towards any attempt to fit in the “Act Like a Man Box.”
So what I’m saying is that cultural pressures tend to teach submissive men to hide their submissiveness – just as cultural pressures tend to teach women to suppress their dominance. But the feminist movement has allowed women greater freedom to express natural dominance where it has not granted similar freedom to men.
Hope that makes it a bit clearer.
Hi Tomio,
Thanks for the thoughtful response. As I said in my original post, I definitely wasn’t trying to be critical, just trying to understand your perspective on this. Although I have to say I’m still kind of confused.
I don’t disagree that it’s hard for a dominant woman to spot a submissive man. But I’m not sure how I’d go about displaying my submissiveness more openly. What actually would I do? As I said in my original post submission is contextual. So a woman seeing my at work is going to see what’s a fairly dominant attitude from me. They’ll see something different again in my social scene.
Hopefully in 1:1 interaction I’m thoughtful, polite, considerate, gentlemanly, etc. But to me that’s not being submissive. It’s just not being a jerk. I’d hope guys who are dominant would behave the same way with unfamiliar women.
I would feel that being submissive in general (i.e. to someone I’m not in a relationship with) is forcing someone else into a dominant role. Which strikes me as an unfair thing to do.
I think this is a fascinating area, and others would seem to agree, judging from the comments. So I’m really trying to understand your perspective in this case.
-paltego
I didn’t take anything as being critical. One of the limitations of the internet is that nuance is easily missed.
So let’s start with submission being contextual. In a co-ed gym, there really is no context where submission is socially acceptable. If you see a woman that you are interested in; then there are any number of socially acceptable ways to indicate that interest and also display some level of dominance. But how would you show both interest and submissiveness?
I agree with you about involving people without their consent.
I thought I was asking you that question? :). I was the one puzzled by exactly how that’d be possible!
Most likely in a gym situation I wouldn’t really engage at all. I dislike pushing myself forward in ambiguous situations where it’s highly likely a woman has just gone to work out rather than meet dudes (as Margo said). That’s partly my personality type and partly a strong dislike of creating awkward situations for people.
But lets say I’m in some social situation where flirting and meeting someone is a very viable option. In that case I’m just me, someone who I hope is polite, thoughtful, interested in the woman in question, respectful, etc. If there was a chance to make a joke about me liking aggressive women or some natural allusion to kink then I’d slide that in, but hopefully in a non-crass way.
Meeting the right kinky person is clearly harder than vanilla dating. But I don’t think that’s specifically a submissive thing. I wouldn’t expect a dominant guy to suddenly start talking about how much he likes tying women up or beating them with canes in a normal introductory situation! And just because a guy is acting stereotypically ‘alpha’ in a social situation doesn’t automatically make him a dominant sexually. He might like wearing french maid outfits and being pegged every night. All genders and all kink inclinations seem to have the same kind of issues in negotiating who is into what.
Having said all that, I think in specifically kink circles (the scene) there is a common pre-disposition to assume male=dominant and female=submissive. But that’s a whole different problem. In the normal world that issue is swamped by the vast number of non-kinky people out there.
-paltego
I never could understand why a man should feel insecure or whatever about being submissive, unless he feels that his submissiveness is something to be considered wrong, a sin, negative, immoral, etc.
Personally i think it’s the other way around: If a man is insecure, and happens to be submissive, he will feel insecure about his submissiveness as well. He doesn’t like that, and wants to get rid of that feeling. One of the ways to achieve this is to blame society for not accepting him as a submissive man.
“Hey guys, listen up, I’m a submissive man coming here for pumping iron for a while”. I don’t see the need for this either. Nor do i see the need to bring ur domina to the site, and have an intimate d/s session in between push-ups. But i could imagine myself going to the gym, and bluntly ask the men over there: “Hey guys, listen up, i’m a femdom, and want to know all about the insecure submissive men in here”. Then sardonically watch the show, hehehe.
“At work I tend to the forceful and aggressive.” ; “I’m normally easy going and a facilitator of conversation, but not at all submissive.” U mean when u r submissive u r not forceful, aggressive, easy going, and a facilitator of conversation?
Hi Ayesha,
I tend to agree with you about insecurity. Confidence/Insecurity is orthogonal to Dominance/Submission. You can be insecure or secure in either role.
As for work & social situations V’s submission, I’d certainly hope I’m easy going and a good facilitator of conversation in all circumstances! Forceful and aggressive is a little more dependent on the situation.
The point I was trying to make was that at work someone would see me as a dominant personality. I have no issues telling someone their idea is a poor one and they need to go and think again. In a social situation I’m not a dominant personality (i.e. not the alpha male trying to dominate the conversation and top others), but I also don’t simply submit to what’s going on. So as I said in the post, it’s all very contextual. In daily life I’m not sure what to be ‘openly submissive’ would mean. Only with the right person would I be a submissive.
-paltego
Of cors it’s contextual. I think it’s analog to the distinction which is made between genotype and phenotype: It’s there, always, but only becomes visible under certain circumstances, in certain situations.
As u probably know, my views on submissiveness and dominance differ significantly from most, and seen by me as unrelated to the usual definitions given to both in the vanilla world. What it comes down to is this: A submissive man (or woman) can have any trait, can show any behavior, but the core of his personality is painted by an indelibly craving to be owned by a woman, as well as a need to challenge that woman to show him that she wants to own him and keep him (for a while, hehe) as her slave. Call it a different kind of love, more dynamic, more intense, more cruel, more exhausting, and especially more in line with what’s cooking inside the participating ‘genotypes’.
Genotype and phenotype – that’s a fascinating way to look at it. I’ve never heard that description used in this context, but it does seem to be an apt one. There’s the intrinsic nature and them the manifestation of it, which is dependent but not necessarily trivially connected.
My personal definitions of dominance and submission are not as clearly defined as yours. But I do agree that there’s a core need/desire and then an almost infinite degree of surface variation from that internal state.
-paltego
As a Femdom and one who absolutely loves and admires submissive men I find it sad for any submissive man to think that he is not appreciated or valued.
Ferns recent video on their beauty was a testament to that truth that for many of us you are cherished!!!
I also believe that there are Femdom’s who can spot a submissive man out in the world. I know that I can. It make take a few conversations…but something is picked up between a submissive and Femdom that others will not see. It’s not how ‘manly’ or ‘weak’ they appear. Submission is something in the fabric of their being that a dominate can recognize and give a safe place to roam free. 😉
I find submissive men exciting, secure in their transparency and openness to share their vulnerabilities. For those who still do not see their full value, I hope they find the right partner who can celebrate them.
It’s the ignorance of society that puts people in boxes.
~ Vista
Hey Vista,
Happy to hear you can spot a submissive man. Wish I could do the same when it comes to dominant women! I’ve found my dom-dar is not the best 🙂
I agree that submission is not related to someone being either manly or weak. In fact to be a good submissive (like being a good dominant) takes a lot of strength. I think it also requires a degree of introspection and self-analysis, which probably helps lead to the transparency and openness that you’ve observed.
-paltego
“I think it also requires a degree of introspection and self-analysis, which probably helps lead to the transparency and openness that you’ve observed.”
Exactly!!!!! 🙂
~ Vista
Hi Paltego,
Years ago I was more generally “submissive.” I think people took advantage of that and I learned to cover it in order to protect myself.
In Japan, Em and I were able to be quite open. For example, when we met in public, I would drop to my knees and kiss her feet. The Japanese, if they thought anything about it, probably tossed it off as the crazy ways of gaijin.
Nowadays, as I edge into seniority, I find my submission much less of an issue. People just smile if they notice Em telling me to do something or scolding me for not doing something or not displaying appropriate deference. They probably think she’s my daughter and I’m a daft old guy that needs being cared for… Hmmm, not too far off the mark.
Best,
scott
Mrs. Kelly’s Playhouse
His scott,
It’s interesting you say that you were more generally submissive in the past. I wonder what the correlation is between men who are submissive sexually and submissive in daily life? I suspect their are also counter-examples of people who are generally “submissive” but do not necessarily want to be or enjoy that sexually. It’d be interesting to know what those ratios are. The stereotype is the high power alpha professional (lawyer, finance, etc.) who likes getting beaten or humiliated in private. I wonder if that’s a stereotype based on the common case, or the exception case?
As I said in my reply to hmp, I think the couple issue is definitely a different one. I think it’s great when people can be open about their relationship, but I also understand the difficulty in being that open for a lot of people.
Let’s hope you don’t end up with anyone calling the authorities for how that young woman is mistreating her older relative! 🙂
-paltego
Wow, what an issue.
I read Tomio Black’s essay. No disrespect to him–I’m unfamiliar with his work and writings–but I must concur with Paltego here: that post is a total head-scratcher.
Look, I don’t want to be an asshole criticizing someone’s random blog post (and not even on their own blog!), but Black’s post contains ideas which are…problematical.
Plenty of submissive men work out at the gym (or dojo), run, bike competitively, or otherwise exercise. I know because I see them at the commercial dungeon where I prodomme. I have truly no idea whether malesubs, as a group (hypothetically) are less likely to go to the gym than males who are not submissive.
Black’s argument about this is confusing–he says a lot of submissive men go to the gym. but they are closeted subs as opposed to be openly submissive at the gym. Then he says submissive men (presumably, open subs) don’t hang out at the gym because it’s a hostile environment. This is simply unclear.
Black also suggests that openly submissive men might be harassed or attacked by non-submissive men. Well, yeah, I guess that is possible. But anyone who would do that would be a criminal moron, and I don’t think that this hypothetical assault would be condoned by most of society. I don’t understand the point here.
And I can only speak for myself here, but when I go to the gym, I go there to exercise. Not to meet dudes. This is a constant topic of conversation among my girlfriends and I–being bugged at the gym. Any man who “indicates interest and some level of dominance” towards me would be a creep. How would he “display dominance,” anyway? Tell me how I could improve my technique? Tell me I ought to go out to dinner with him afterward? Oh wait, that happens all the time. It’s called chauvinism and sexual harassment. And what’s a malesub supposed to do? “Miss, I see your canteen is empty! Want me to fill it up for you at the drinking fountain?” I am being a little sarcastic, but that’s creepy, too.
I think Dominant women CAN spot submissive men…but only after they talk to them and observe them for a little while. Or at least, she can get a hunch he’s submissive. My kink-dar is pretty decent…but of course, there’s no way to know until you get close enough to someone to talk about these things or have sex with them, right?
You can’t ID someone’s kink on sight, unless it’s gay pride day and they’re wearing a hanky or something.
Okay, I’ve got to wrap this up. I feel kinda bad picking on Black’s essay, but my opinion is that it is discursive and contradictory.
Hey Miss Margo,
Thanks for the long and detailed comment. I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said here, so not a lot more for me to add. I find the intersection between public/social characteristics and more private sexual ones to be an interesting one, which is what first prompted me to write the post. It’s no doubt something I’ll return to in the future.
I was also interested that both you and Vista commented that they thought they could spot submissive men after a suitable observation period. As I said in another comment, I don’t think my dom-dar is all that good, and from other comments I’ve seen I suspect other guys feel the same way. I wonder if that’s a common difference, or a common perception difference, or what.
-paltego
Thanks for your response, Palego!
I think that I might have decent “kink-dar,” as I call it, because since I’ve worked as a commercial dungeon, I’ve met a loooooooooot of kinky guys. Even if I don’t session with them, I meet them, interview them, hear about them from other mistresses, observe their sessions. You start to “pick up” on mannarisms, vibes…look, I know that’s not very specific, and I’m don’t put a ton of faith in “gut feelings” or “intuition”….no woo for me, thanks…but you do get a feeling for these guys.
Also, my own sadomasochism is a very deep part of my sexuality. Especially masochism. I can ID potential sadists (and sometimes masos) on an almost unconscious level, like they’re sending out radio waves that only I or people like us can hear. I think it’s probably how gay people managed to identify each other back in the 20s, 30, 40s, 50s when it was still forbidden to be openly gay. Does that make sense?
Okay, something else: there is a LONG history of celebrated masculine submission in Western cultural tradition. Our concept of romantic love is a product of medieval culture–chivalry and COURTLY LOVE, to be precise. This is historical fact. Love is a universal human condition, but romantic love is a fairly recent phenomenon. There are variations, but typically it involved a knight or minor nobleman being madly in love with the king’s wife, or another superior woman he had no hope of ever marrying or even, usually, having sex with. His love for her was humiliating but also morally ennobling and required self-discipline and honor. He would go on dangerous missions and quests in the name of the woman he loved. She would give him small tokens of her appreciation that he would treasure. There is a huge genre of song, art, and poems/literature written about this subject. The men in these stories were VERY submissive, but also very desirable and masculine. They suffered for their love for these women. And they were supposed to defend and help all women, even old and poor ones, from predatory men.
You can wiki this to find out more. It’s fascinating stuff.
Okay, that’s my morning essay!
P.S. I hate to pick on Black again, but I don’t think he understands what maslow’s hierarchy of needs is and means. Sorry.
Hey Miss Margo,
Working in a commercial dungeon definitely sounds like it gives you a chance to fine the radar. Submissive guys, even if they bounce around a lot of different dommes, don’t get anywhere near that volume of training data for their scanning equipment! Although I’m not sure that sadomasochism being a bit part of your sexuality can necessarily accounts for good spotting skills. I think a lot of guys (including me) would say the same thing, and still suck at spotting kinky people. Maybe it’s a male/female thing, or maybe it’s an experience thing, maybe it’s just a per individual thing, or maybe it’s just a perception thing. It’d be a fun thing to try and craft an experiment to test. The cynic in me thinks it could just be down to sample data size, which creates potential observation bias.
I also wonder if it’s easier to spot dominant/sadistic males than dominant/sadistic females. To generalize broadly, our culture generally tends to smile on the former and frown on the later. That might create a situation where males don’t try to muffle the signal they transmit, where females do, even if it’s all happening at a subconscious level.
The relationship of chivalry and courtly love to submission is an interesting one. I’ve never really pondered that connection. Offhand I’d tend to think of courtly love in terms of idolizing and elevating the woman rather than putting her in a position of dominance. It’s making her an untouchable virginal figure rather than a controlling figure. Kind of interesting to ponder who has the power in that situation. Although having said that, someone like Eleanor of Aquitaine was both idolized and very powerful. I need to read up some more on it, as it’s been years since I studied anything on that era. Of course, there’s also the problem of the Victorian re-invention of chivalry and their re-interpretation of medieval history to suit themselves. But from a cultural perspective, one could argue that doesn’t really matter. Regardless of what’s actually true, the fact they presented it as a certain way (and affected our culture as a result) makes it meaningful culturally.
-paltego
@ Paltego.
If one is successful or not in recognizing a dominant female and/or a submissive man (woman) on the spot, depends less on individual experiences and skills than on the intensity and quality of the interaction between these individuals once they’ve laid eyes on each other. Key factors r as well: Does dominance/submissiveness belong to the core of their personality, and if that is the case, how much of it they want/allow/r comfortable with to be on display in daily life. The more they embrace that core and want it to be out in the open, the more that core will translate itself via their body language and thus making it rather easy to be picked up by other core d/s wired people.
And the good thing of this is? If there’s no chemistry felt, no radiation coming from the other person, i won’t even bother for a nanosecond to find out if maybe somewhere hidden deep down in the core of that poor person’s personality a slave is suffering in his/her own created dungeon, self-sentenced and imprisoned for life without parole, without any possibility to share (part of) his/her life with me (grin). Life is great! לחיים